Larry Madowo:

President Kagame, when we spoke in February, shortly after President Trump took over power, you said you supported cuts to aid, that we as Africans have to be self dependent. We can’t rely on other people to fund our development. A lot has happened since then that in some ways threatened our economic advantages as Africans. Do you still support largely what President Trump is doing in resetting our relationship with America, and forcing us as Africans to step up?

President Kagame:

 Thank you Larry. We have to put everything in the context. Whatever President Trump has decided or whatever anybody else will decide in the near future, there is a history to how we’ve been going about things for decades as Africa. It isn’t like we should just wake up one morning because of what somebody has done that affects us. We should have been building up the momentum in terms of what we need to do to make Africa self-dependent and resilient, also in how Africa works with other continents and countries. That is the context.

In this case, it is as well that President Trump decided to do what he did, if that was only to add to many other reminders or things that should wake us up to, as Africa, be able to do what we ought to do. And there are many opportunities. We always talk about the potential of our continent, but when do we realize what this potential is all about in reality? I think that has always been the question. And that comes back to us as a continent, as the people of this continent, to take the bull by its horns and deal with the problem. We can’t keep depending on what others are saying or doing about us. We need to be working with each other and other countries on the global stage that offer what we need, and as well offer what they need. This is the context.

 

Larry Madowo:

You have been an advocate, President Kagame, of reforming the African Union. Is it, as currently set up, the vehicle for our aspirations as africans – when for instance, you’ve been critical of its role in mediating in the conflict that you have with your neighbor in the DRC – in the Luanda process, in the Nairobi process – the best results appear to have come from one meeting you had with President Tshisekedi in Qatar. So, the African Union failed and Qatar succeeded?

 

President Kagame:

There are several efforts going on at the same time. That’s the problem. And even that one we are talking about, whether it is Qatar or the U.S –  we can’t say we have succeeded. Everyone is trying. And again, it comes back to us. If you look at what we’ve been doing on our continent, much progress has been made. I think we can’t say nothing has been done, generally – whether it was to do with the reforms – I think Africans have come together: They have defined things, and speak with one voice increasingly. There is significant progress. But most of these developments that have been happening in the last decade, as I said, are reminders that there are things we need to do that we haven’t done. If you look at it at the African Union level, I remember when I was the champion of the reform process, there are things that were discussed on the continent. For example, the Peace and Security Facility that was put in place – it was put in place to avoid being fully dependent on external funders, because that has been the case. In fact, this is similar to what happens in other areas in different countries. We depend so much on external partners and forget ourselves to put in place what we really have to do and can do. That is progress. In terms of peace and security, look at the whole continent: you find there are many trouble spots in different areas. There are all kinds of efforts going on, back and forth, succeeding in some places, not succeeding in others, and continued efforts going on. Because of the past and how we have handled our own affairs, we are all of a sudden reminded that we can’t do all things by ourselves, and revert to these partners. In any case, even if we are able to do things ourselves, we still have to bring in partners who have what to offer. But as Africa we have to be able to define which direction we want to take, and not entirely depend on what these people are contributing.

 

Larry Madowo:

President Kagame, another issue: there are several candidates here for President of the African Development Bank. And this is happening when we just learned recently that President Donald Trump intends to cut about $555 million. They’re going to take over an organization that still needs a lot of funding. But can we do it? And is it the right body to develop our continent, even when the EU, the U.S. and others are reducing how much they contribute to it? And this, is related to your earlier point: We can’t rely on others.

 

President Kagame:

Again, let me start from where my brother President Ramaphosa, left off. One, we can pat each other’s back and be happy that we are making progress, which is true. The continent is making progress. Where we are now is not where we were 30 years ago. But at the same time, we have to be brutally honest with ourselves, and we don’t need to blame anybody else. We just need to do what we have to do because I believe we can do better, we can do more, and we can do many things together  and that will take us very far. This kind of conversation, and what has been said by all of us most of the time has been going on more or less forever. We talk about Africa’s potential. We talk about the partnership between the private sector and the public sector. As has been said, it’s about resources. It’s about money. It’s about what we do in terms of investment. We can’t just appeal to the private sector to be part of that process to join with the public sector and do what we need to do without incentivizing the private sector because there is a lot government can do to create these incentives. It’s about regulution. It’s about laws. It’s about a secure environment and good governance. Earlier accountability was also being talked about. These are real things that matter.

For example, let me go straight to the question: the cutting of budgets, cutting of aid, cutting of all kinds of things – and all of a sudden we as Africans, we wake up to this reality when it has been there so many times before and we start scrambling. What do we do? No, what we need to do is what we should have done many years ago and still we can do it. There is a mentality out there. It’s sort of a mindset in our continent that somebody out there is going to foot the bill of our development –  and that has undermined our efforts to contribute as much as we can ourselves for our own development.

What we need to do is what we started doing. The frustration here for me is: we talked about how I championed the reform and worked with many other leaders on different subjects, but there is a sense of frustration that what we have agreed even at a continental level involving all leaders and how regional communities should with the AU at a continental level is not implemented. The systems are so bureaucratic that you imagine they live in another world, not this one that is so harsh to us that we need to be doing certain things in certain ways without expecting that somebody will always be kind to us and that’s what we depend on almost forever. I’m saying this out of experience. I have lived in my country and I see many other African countries go through that. So, on one hand there is everything in our hands to do whatever we need to do and benefit from that.

On the other, we are expecting that somebody else will come and do what we need for ourselves. So how can this go on forever? We have the knowledge, we have the vision, we have everything. We have resources, and we have organizations. Africa should be far ahead of where we are now and we shouldn’t take any comfort that some progress has been made here or there. We just need to do what we have to do, and we have all the means to do it.

We are actually our own problems: we export raw materials, and then import the finished products. We export talent, and then get experts coming to give us all kinds of things. Why don’t we retain this talent and get the talent to do what we need them to do for ourselves?

It’s a much deeper conversation we must have. Sometimes, if we have to wash our dirty linen in public for the sake of making progress, then we still have to do it. But there is a sense of frustration that you cannot simply be comfortable about.

What President Ramaphosa just said, for example, the efforts here and there about our situation when COVID struck. After that, I was given the responsibility to champion the domestic financing for health. We find in the mindsets of many people they expect that somebody will do the funding. We can’t tap into our own resources to the level that is required and do exactly the things we agreed we should do and some of us have tried to do but it’s not enough. We need as many countries to get involved on our continent as possible. I think there is more conversation to be had and we should have it. We need to be brutally honest with each other somewhere in different rooms and I can promise you we are willing to contribute to that.